by Don Hank
I had shared with the reader my response to a Muslim whom I debated over the differences between Christianity and Islam.
I had thought it would be worthwhile to some as a template for Christian apologetics with Muslims. I had mentioned some of Mahmoud’s arguments, but had not included his lengthy argument.
Below I share it with the reader, in addition to some further rebuttals to his claims.
It is noteworthy that Mahmoud – like many Muslim intellectuals today – makes no attempt to apologize for the violent acts of his fellow Muslims.
Instead, intriguingly, he uses the Bible as an excuse for such behavior.
I had later left a message for him that must have left him dumbfounded, because he pleaded in the last email “please, no more discussion.”
The Muslim world is used to our wishy-washy responses to their arguments. They are used to dealing with Westerners who know nothing about the Bible and whom they can twist them around their little fingers.
This is why having the ability to defeat them at this game is no small contribution to the continued survival of Western civilization. My victory over Mahmoud was our victory. He knows he can’t proceed to the next level of this debate. He has been defeated both intellectually and morally and will never forget the rebuttals he received from me and my friends. I want to thank all who helped with this debate, especially with the scriptural rebuttals. I could not have done it alone without your, and God’s, help. BTW, I suspect even atheists can appreciate the advantage we have when we arm ourselves with the full armor of God. (And by that I do not mean the wishy-washy social gospel).
A few quick notes here:
It is very true that the Old Testament calls for violent punishments for all sorts of misdemeanors, many of which are no longer considered as such anywhere in the West.
Nor did Jesus say these were to be abolished.
And the Muslims use this lack of direct abolition of the ancient law to show that the Old Testament laws still stand. Which they do, but with a very important proviso.
Jesus did something more important and more poignant than directly stating the Law was abolished. He was not in a political position to say this directly, and He really didn’t want to abolish the law, just the way it was enforced all too often by heinous sinners and hypocrites. So He taught by example.
For example, the law whereby adultery is to be punished by stoning was indirectly replaced by the concept of grace when Jesus confronted the crowd that was about to stone and adulteress and said:
“Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.”
When no one stepped forward, Jesus had masterfully shown that, while God is still displeased with sin, none of us is worthy to administer the punishment. Only God can do that. By extension, this applies to all of the Hebrew laws requiring harsh punishments.
And yet, as if to rebuke the “liberals” of His day and ours, Jesus added, addressing the adulteress:
“Go and sin no more.”
He meant it. So in that sense, the law was not abolished, just as He said it was not (I am come not to abolish the law but to fulfill the law).
But the Muslims ignore this all-important nuance, and they quote the above claim by Jesus to show triumphantly that the law still stands and that they have the right to mete out harsh punishments by terror and stoning. In fact, they sometimes claim that parts of the Bible have been falsified and that this sort of thing never happened.
Their “Prophet” re-wrote the scriptures to satisfy his own thirst for violence and vengeance and for sexual gratification, and they honor him for it. Nothing could be more evil and diabolical. They even say we are blaspheming when we reject their prophet’s words. They miss the irony of Mohammed blaspheming against Christ by calling Him a mere prophet on a level with Mohammed, denying His position as Master and Savior and denying His crucifixion and resurrection.
As you can see from Mahmoud’s text below, much of what the Muslims believe about Jesus is the same as the Christian creed, except for a few points such as the crucifixion and resurrection, as mentioned above. Yet these nuances make the difference between a medieval society that scarcely functions and a high-powered dynamic society that produces scientific wonders and enables people to live at relative peace.
Finally, the Muslims claim Jesus never said He was God.
I was about to go look for scripture to rebut this, but just as I switched back to my email, a new email came in from a brother in Christ who has been a mentor to me.
Here he writes exactly what I was about to look for (the comments are his):
27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.”
28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”
Note that Jesus did not correct him as He should and would have if it were not true, and He accepted his worship.
while the casual reading public today might not get the full meaning of what Jesus said here, the rulers sure did.
32 Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?”
33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”
Look at what Peter said.
18 And it happened that while He was praying alone, the disciples were with Him, and He questioned them, saying, “Who do the people say that I am?”
19 They answered and said, “John the Baptist, and others say Elijah; but others, that one of the prophets of old has risen again.”
20 And He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” And Peter answered and said, “The Christ of God.”
21 But He warned them and instructed them not to tell this to anyone,
69 “But from now on THE SON OF MAN WILL BE SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND of the power OF GOD.”
70 And they all said, “Are You the Son of God, then?” And He said to them, “Yes, I am.”
71 Then they said, “What further need do we have of testimony? For we have heard it ourselves from His own mouth.”
57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.
[Before going into Mahmoud's arguments, I just happened to have received a link from a sister in Christ that shows how wimpy "Christian" pastors side with Muslims in distorting the scriptures: http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/011/bell.htm
Here is a great patriotic speech on this subject:
—– Original Message —–
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2011 1:17 PM
Subject: RE: Blasphemy Laws in Bible
JESUS in the QURAN
The Islamic view of Jesus lies between two extremes. The Jews , who rejected Jesus as a Prophet of God, called him an impostor. The Christians, on the other hand, considered him to be the son of God and worship him as such.
Islam considers Jesus to be one of the great prophets of God and respects him as much as Ibrahim (Abraham), Moses, and Mohammed. (Peace Be Upon Them) This is conformity with the Islamic view of the oneness of God, the oneness of Divine guidance, and the complementary role of the subsequent mission of God’s messengers.
WE MUSLIMS BELIEVE;
THAT JESUS WAS ONE OF THE MIGHTIEST MESSENGERS OF GOD,
THAT HE WAS THE CHRIST,
THAT HE WAS BORN MIRACULOUSLY – WITHOUT ANY MALE INTERVENTION,
THAT HE GAVE LIFE TO THE DEAD BY GOD’S PERMISSION,
AND THAT HE HEALED THOSE BORN BLIND AND THE LEPERS BY GOD’S PERMISSION.
IN FACT NO MUSLIM IS A MUSLIM IF HE DOES NOT BELIEVE IN JESUS!”
Now you people are free to apply what you want…! Where we insult the Jesus(pbuh)..? Where we make fun of him…? We Muslims can’t even think like this…! even in Iran, where you think people can’t have freedom of speech. or in USA, the champion of freedom, we are same every where for the respect of Jesus(pbuh) and Bible(book of God).
To: Subject: Re: Blasphemy Laws ib Bible
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 19:16:09 -0500
I asked that because it is my understanding that Jesus is not considered the Savior by Muslims. I didn’t say he wasn’t a prophet. I said Muslims think he is ONLY a prophet and nothing more.
—– Original Message —–
From: xxx To: email@example.com
Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 6:48 PM
Subject: RE: Blasphemy Laws ib Bible
If any insults the Jesus(pbuh) and the book reveald on to him, sure put to death. more, if a muslim just thinks about it, next moment he is not a Muslim.
as u said, its a blasphy to say Jesus(pbuh) is a prophet…. then you have to prove that he is not a Prophet.
let me see a single verse of bible which discribes clearly, he said “he is God” or “worship me” ….! simple..!
As in Islam:
”There is no god but God, the One and Only, without partner, and Muhammad is only the messenger and servant of God.”
waiting your response……
and see attachmnt, what we Muslims think about Jesus(pbuh) and tunderstand the book Ingeel(The Bible).
To: Subject: Re: Blasphemy Laws ib Bible
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 13:12:23 -0500
So does this mean you think that Muslims must be put to death for blaspheming against the Bible and saying Jesus is only a prophet?
—– Original Message —–
Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 1:12 PM
Subject: Blasphemy Laws ib Bible
|The Third Book of Moses, Called
|The Tending of the Lamp
|Ex. 27.20, 21
||And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
||Command the children of Israel, that they bring unto thee pure oil olive beaten for the light, to cause the lamps to burn continually.
||Without the veil of the testimony, in the tabernacle of the congregation, shall Aaron order it from the evening unto the morning before the LORD continually: it shall be a statute for ever in your generations.
||He shall order the lamps upon the pure candlestick before the LORD continually.
||¶ And thou shalt take fine flour, and bake twelve cakes thereof: two tenth deals shall be in one cake.
||And thou shalt set them in two rows, six on a row, upon the pure table before the LORD. Ex. 25.30
||And thou shalt put pure frankincense upon each row, that it may be on the bread for a memorial, even an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
||Every sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant.
||And it shall be Aaron’s and his sons’; Mt. 12.4 · Mk. 2.26 · Lk. 6.4 and they shall eat it in the holy place: for it is most holy unto him of the offerings of the LORD made by fire by a perpetual statute.
|The Punishment for Blasphemy
||¶ And the son of an Israelitish woman, whose father was an Egyptian, went out among the children of Israel: and this son of the Israelitish woman and a man of Israel strove together in the camp;
||and the Israelitish woman’s son blasphemed the name of the LORD, and cursed. And they brought him unto Moses: (and his mother’s name was Shelo’mith, the daughter of Dibri, of the tribe of Dan:)
||and they put him in ward, that the mind of the LORD might be showed them.
||¶ And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
||Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard him lay their hands upon his head, and let all the congregation stone him.
||And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, Whosoever curseth his God shall bear his sin.
||And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death.
||And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death. Ex. 21.12
||And he that killeth a beast shall make it good; beast for beast.
||And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbor; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him;
||breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: Ex. 21.23-25 · Deut. 19.21 · Mt. 5.38 as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again.
||And he that killeth a beast, he shall restore it: and he that killeth a man, he shall be put to death.
||Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: Num. 15.16 for I am the LORD your God.
||And Moses spake to the children of Israel, that they should bring forth him that had cursed out of the camp, and stone him with stones: and the children of Israel did as the LORD commanded Moses.
|The Third Book of Moses, Called
its enough for you…i think….plz read…!
The Punishment for Blasphemy in Bible
 And the son of an Israelitish woman, whose father was an Egyptian, went out among the children of Israel: and this son of the Israelitish woman and a man of Israel strove together in the camp;
 And the Israelitish woman’s son blasphemed the name of the LORD, and cursed. And they brought him unto Moses: (and his mother’s name was Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri, of the tribe of Dan:)
 And they put him in ward, that the mind of the LORD might be shewed them.
 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
 Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard him lay their hands upon his head, and let all the congregation stone him.
 And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, Whosoever curseth his God shall bear his sin.
 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death.
 And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death.
 And he that killeth a beast shall make it good; beast for beast.
 And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him;
 Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again.
 And he that killeth a beast, he shall restore it: and he that killeth a man, he shall be put to death.
 Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the LORD your God.
 And Moses spake to the children of Israel, that they should bring forth him that had cursed out of the camp, and stone him with stones. And the children of Israel did as the LORD commanded Moses.
And if anyone again prophesies, his father and mother who bore him will say to him,(A) ‘You shall not live, for you speak lies in the name of the LORD.’ And his father and mother who bore him shall pierce him through when he prophesies.
(Luke 12:10 RSV)
“And every one who speaks a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.”
“I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin.”
How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
Punishment for Drunkard:
DEU 21:20 They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and
rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard.”
21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge
the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.
21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did
before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Punishment for HOMOSEXUALITY
LEV 18:22 “‘Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is
29 “‘Everyone who does any of these detestable things–such persons must
be cut off from their people.
20:13 “‘If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them
have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will
be on their own heads.
GEN 3:16 To the woman he said, “I will greatly increase your pains in
childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will
be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”