Comments on: IMPORTANT questions for Islamists and their appeasers http://laiglesforum.com/2008/03/29/important-questions-for-islamists-and-their-appeasers/ Christian Activism Mon, 06 Sep 2010 20:33:37 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: Marilyn http://laiglesforum.com/2008/03/29/important-questions-for-islamists-and-their-appeasers/comment-page-1/#comment-15495 Marilyn Sun, 30 Mar 2008 22:20:36 +0000 http://laiglesforum.com/2008/03/29/important-questions-for-islamists-and-their-appeasers/#comment-15495 This is a very interesting discussion. I am not an expert to answer the questions here. There are a few points I know of that I can address here. The Jewish view, as I have studied some of Judaism, includes a concept that God does not like vanity. The bible teaches both Christians and Jews to condemn vanity. It is an ethics issue. I know it is better to try not to say anything to harm anyone's feelings. I also know that if I know what the truth is about something, then I should bring that to the light, as long as I can do that with out harming another person's feelings. That being said, I know I must say the truth, which is that Abraham is the Patriarch of the Jews. In the Bible it states that Ishmael, the son of Abraham that was sent away with his Mother, Haggar, would have a great Nation given. That would be the Muslim faith as descendants of Abraham's son, Ishmael. Human beings make mistakes. Sarah, the wife of Abraham, was taunted by Haggar, who was Sarah's maid, for not having children. Sarah decided to allow Haggar to produce a child for Sarah through Abraham. Haggar persisted with her attitude, and her son, Ishmael was out of line. Then, when at the age of 100 years, God gave Abraham and Sarah, their son Isaac. Sarah did not wish to have Isaac be influenced by the behavior of Ishmael. Sarah also did not wish to continue to have Haggar continue with her behavior as well. Abraham abided by his wife Sarah's advise and banished both Haggar and Ishmael. It is not easy to clear up the problems of vanity. Forgiveness is possible with human beings. I hope and pray that this ancient scenario be resolved with forgiveness because the vanity involved is addressed. The Christian view as stated in the previous posts, involve solving problems with love. The Judaeic concepts, when studying the same problems, bring about revealing and understanding the underlying necessities of behavior to be able to address the problems with love. I would venture to say that both Christianity and the Muslim faiths are sort of a shorthand of Judaism. Judaism is by far the most thorough, and therefore takes more study to grasp and it is truly the root, the original, the real beginning of these religions. These thoughts are from a person, who grew up a Christian and experienced a conversion to Judaism, returned to Christianity, and is now studying Judaism. My recommendation is for Muslim's to study Judaism as well. The rewards are great in understanding. The task is however,a more difficult road to comprehend than Christianity. This is a very interesting discussion. I am not an expert to answer the questions here. There are a few points I know of that I can address here.

The Jewish view, as I have studied some of Judaism, includes a concept that God does not like vanity. The bible teaches both Christians and Jews to condemn vanity. It is an ethics issue.

I know it is better to try not to say anything to harm anyone’s feelings. I also know that if I know what the truth is about something, then I should bring that to the light, as long as I can do that with out harming another person’s feelings. That being said, I know I must say the truth, which is that Abraham is the Patriarch of the Jews. In the Bible it states that Ishmael, the son of Abraham that was sent away with his Mother, Haggar, would have a great Nation given. That would be the Muslim faith as descendants of Abraham’s son, Ishmael. Human beings make mistakes. Sarah, the wife of Abraham, was taunted by Haggar, who was Sarah’s maid, for not having children. Sarah decided to allow Haggar to produce a child for Sarah through Abraham. Haggar persisted with her attitude, and her son, Ishmael was out of line. Then, when at the age of 100 years, God gave Abraham and Sarah, their son Isaac. Sarah did not wish to have Isaac be influenced by the behavior of Ishmael. Sarah also did not wish to continue to have Haggar continue with her behavior as well. Abraham abided by his wife Sarah’s advise and banished both Haggar and Ishmael. It is not easy to clear up the problems of vanity. Forgiveness is possible with human beings. I hope and pray that this ancient scenario be resolved with forgiveness because the vanity involved is addressed. The Christian view as stated in the previous posts, involve solving problems with love. The Judaeic concepts, when studying the same problems, bring about revealing and understanding the underlying necessities of behavior to be able to address the problems with love. I would venture to say that both Christianity and the Muslim faiths are sort of a shorthand of Judaism. Judaism is by far the most thorough, and therefore takes more study to grasp and it is truly the root, the original, the real beginning of these religions. These thoughts are from a person, who grew up a Christian and experienced a conversion to Judaism, returned to Christianity, and is now studying Judaism. My recommendation is for Muslim’s to study Judaism as well. The rewards are great in understanding. The task is however,a more difficult road to comprehend than Christianity.

]]> By: LAIGLESFORUM http://laiglesforum.com/2008/03/29/important-questions-for-islamists-and-their-appeasers/comment-page-1/#comment-15494 LAIGLESFORUM Sun, 30 Mar 2008 19:30:34 +0000 http://laiglesforum.com/2008/03/29/important-questions-for-islamists-and-their-appeasers/#comment-15494 Hello Nabil, Yes, that is an interesting question and I can't speak for the Jews. Perhaps another reader can help us out. As for blindness, I had mentioned in an earlier article that, according to my friend AR Horvath (Athanatos, or Sntjohnnys, linked to this site), the book of Daniel does in fact predict the exact dates of some events in the life of Jesus, and I think it is no doubt this kind of accurate prediction (of which there are several) that persuaded many of the early Christians to believe in Christ. What you are suggesting would lead one to believe that Christians are closer to Muslims than to Jews. Interesting indeed, although theologically, Christians stand apart from you both because we believe in salvation through grace rather than works. Christ said none is good but God. He meant that no one -- neither Jew nor gentile -- could ever be saved by good works. I must admit, though, that I find it hard to call some people Christians who are persistently living in sin, and am impressed by the fact that many Muslims actually live clean lives, while many of the Judeo-Christian persuasion do not. This is where I give you folks credit. Personally, if I were an Arab and saw Hollywood movies, I would probably think that America is the Great Satan, although I know that there are many decent people here who reject the Hollywood message, as I do. The Apostle Paul says that all people of all nations know in their hearts the difference between right and wrong, both Jew and gentile, and he says there is therefore no excuse for sin. However, there is redemption. NO ONE is excluded. All they need to do is accept the Savior's blood as atonement. That is the good news! Hello Nabil,
Yes, that is an interesting question and I can’t speak for the Jews. Perhaps another reader can help us out.
As for blindness, I had mentioned in an earlier article that, according to my friend AR Horvath (Athanatos, or Sntjohnnys, linked to this site), the book of Daniel does in fact predict the exact dates of some events in the life of Jesus, and I think it is no doubt this kind of accurate prediction (of which there are several) that persuaded many of the early Christians to believe in Christ.
What you are suggesting would lead one to believe that Christians are closer to Muslims than to Jews.
Interesting indeed, although theologically, Christians stand apart from you both because we believe in salvation through grace rather than works. Christ said none is good but God. He meant that no one — neither Jew nor gentile — could ever be saved by good works.
I must admit, though, that I find it hard to call some people Christians who are persistently living in sin, and am impressed by the fact that many Muslims actually live clean lives, while many of the Judeo-Christian persuasion do not.
This is where I give you folks credit. Personally, if I were an Arab and saw Hollywood movies, I would probably think that America is the Great Satan, although I know that there are many decent people here who reject the Hollywood message, as I do.
The Apostle Paul says that all people of all nations know in their hearts the difference between right and wrong, both Jew and gentile, and he says there is therefore no excuse for sin.
However, there is redemption. NO ONE is excluded. All they need to do is accept the Savior’s blood as atonement. That is the good news!

]]> By: Nabil Ahmad http://laiglesforum.com/2008/03/29/important-questions-for-islamists-and-their-appeasers/comment-page-1/#comment-15492 Nabil Ahmad Sun, 30 Mar 2008 18:56:57 +0000 http://laiglesforum.com/2008/03/29/important-questions-for-islamists-and-their-appeasers/#comment-15492 Actually, the Bible itself has some pretty strong criticism levelled against the ancient Israelites and others who claim to follow God's word but do not. One must be careful not to jump to conclusions when finding passages in the Qur'an levelled against Jews, Christians and people of other faiths. The Qur'an also mentions that there are those Muslims who are hypocrites and is just as harsh on them. On the other hand, the Qur'an also mentions that there are Believers among Jews, Chrsitians and even idolaters, and that they will be permitted to enter Paradise as well. God also forbade waging wars against those who have not attacked us on account of our faith, and that those who do are wrongdoers and may be punished for their crimes. We do not look at Jews and Christians as they look upon us. As a Muslim, I see Islam as the original faith in God (we believe that Abraham was a Muslim in the true sense of the word; ie. one who submtted before God). I see Judaism and Christianity (along with Zoroastianism, Buddhism, Hindusim, etc.) as variants of Islam. The Qur'an mentions (if my memory serves me correctly) that God sent at least one messenger/prophet to every nation on the face of this planet at one time or another. The last of these was Muhammad. But I also believe that all of these messenger/prophets from God preached the same central message: That our God is One and the only One to be worshipped, that He is All-Knowing, All-Seeing, Just as well as Merciful. And that we should be just and merciful towards others. Your Muslim Arab friend said that hardly anyone believes in God over in Europe. But most of them are Christian by origin. Perhaps it is these people who are being refered to in the Qur'an as "disbelievers", along with Jews who don't believe in God, either. Now I have an interesting question for you: If you believe as a Christian that Jesus was the "son of God", why is it that the Jews don't? Jesus was one of their number. You share the same Old Testament. Could they be so blind so as not to be able see this? Or are they basically confirming what is already told to us in the Qur'an? Take care. Actually, the Bible itself has some pretty strong criticism levelled against the ancient Israelites and others who claim to follow God’s word but do not.

One must be careful not to jump to conclusions when finding passages in the Qur’an levelled against Jews, Christians and people of other faiths. The Qur’an also mentions that there are those Muslims who are hypocrites and is just as harsh on them.

On the other hand, the Qur’an also mentions that there are Believers among Jews, Chrsitians and even idolaters, and that they will be permitted to enter Paradise as well. God also forbade waging wars against those who have not attacked us on account of our faith, and that those who do are wrongdoers and may be punished for their crimes.

We do not look at Jews and Christians as they look upon us. As a Muslim, I see Islam as the original faith in God (we believe that Abraham was a Muslim in the true sense of the word; ie. one who submtted before God). I see Judaism and Christianity (along with Zoroastianism, Buddhism, Hindusim, etc.) as variants of Islam. The Qur’an mentions (if my memory serves me correctly) that God sent at least one messenger/prophet to every nation on the face of this planet at one time or another. The last of these was Muhammad. But I also believe that all of these messenger/prophets from God preached the same central message: That our God is One and the only One to be worshipped, that He is All-Knowing, All-Seeing, Just as well as Merciful. And that we should be just and merciful towards others.

Your Muslim Arab friend said that hardly anyone believes in God over in Europe. But most of them are Christian by origin. Perhaps it is these people who are being refered to in the Qur’an as “disbelievers”, along with Jews who don’t believe in God, either.

Now I have an interesting question for you: If you believe as a Christian that Jesus was the “son of God”, why is it that the Jews don’t? Jesus was one of their number. You share the same Old Testament. Could they be so blind so as not to be able see this? Or are they basically confirming what is already told to us in the Qur’an?

Take care.

]]> By: LAIGLESFORUM http://laiglesforum.com/2008/03/29/important-questions-for-islamists-and-their-appeasers/comment-page-1/#comment-15475 LAIGLESFORUM Sun, 30 Mar 2008 01:08:02 +0000 http://laiglesforum.com/2008/03/29/important-questions-for-islamists-and-their-appeasers/#comment-15475 Hello Nabil, Thanks for this thoughtful comment. I appreciate your taking the time to stop by. I must admit I have spoken with a Muslim Arab who had spent 12 years in France and when we talked about the godlessness of that country -- where he said, regretfully, that he had never met a single person who said they believed in God -- I felt a certain kinship with him, at least on that level, because I share that regret that our European fatherland has fallen to such a level of godlessness. One thing that amazes me is that Mohammed has said that Jesus is a prophet (we believe He is much more than that, of course), and yet, he has written some very negative things about Christians. Likewise, he admits that many of the prophets mentioned in the Old Testament are also prophets of Islam, and yet he rejects the Jews so roundly. I have never understood this apparent contradiction and this animosity. On the one hand, the Muslim faith seems to have been built on Judeo-Christian roots, and yet the one who interprets this religion for its followers in the Koran seems to be cutting himself and his followers off from that root. We Christians acknowledge our Jewish roots when we read the Old Testament and apply its wisdom to our lives (which is probably why you think of us as the People of the Book). We do not try to cut ourselves off from it and we do not dishonor the people who were chosen by God to write that book, even though we are sorry that they reject our Christ. This is why we share their grief at the Holocaust, which was a great tragedy that I personally came to grips with on a visit to Auwschitz. I wonder if you have any thoughts on any of these things. Hello Nabil,
Thanks for this thoughtful comment. I appreciate your taking the time to stop by.
I must admit I have spoken with a Muslim Arab who had spent 12 years in France and when we talked about the godlessness of that country — where he said, regretfully, that he had never met a single person who said they believed in God — I felt a certain kinship with him, at least on that level, because I share that regret that our European fatherland has fallen to such a level of godlessness.
One thing that amazes me is that Mohammed has said that Jesus is a prophet (we believe He is much more than that, of course), and yet, he has written some very negative things about Christians.
Likewise, he admits that many of the prophets mentioned in the Old Testament are also prophets of Islam, and yet he rejects the Jews so roundly.
I have never understood this apparent contradiction and this animosity. On the one hand, the Muslim faith seems to have been built on Judeo-Christian roots, and yet the one who interprets this religion for its followers in the Koran seems to be cutting himself and his followers off from that root. We Christians acknowledge our Jewish roots when we read the Old Testament and apply its wisdom to our lives (which is probably why you think of us as the People of the Book). We do not try to cut ourselves off from it and we do not dishonor the people who were chosen by God to write that book, even though we are sorry that they reject our Christ.
This is why we share their grief at the Holocaust, which was a great tragedy that I personally came to grips with on a visit to Auwschitz.
I wonder if you have any thoughts on any of these things.

]]> By: Nabil Ahmad http://laiglesforum.com/2008/03/29/important-questions-for-islamists-and-their-appeasers/comment-page-1/#comment-15473 Nabil Ahmad Sat, 29 Mar 2008 22:58:55 +0000 http://laiglesforum.com/2008/03/29/important-questions-for-islamists-and-their-appeasers/#comment-15473 I just happen to be a Sunni Muslim who takes his religion and faith in God quite seriously. I don't believe suing anyone who "offends" us should be sued. And violence won't do anyone any good when it comes to restoring the honor of Muslims and Islam. It's up to us as Muslims to earn the trust and honor that we feel that we are entitled to by acting and thinking honorably. Violence against our critics, violence against women and children and the lack of tolerance for alternative points of view will end up destroying us. They are the direct result of following our so-called religious and political leaders like sheep. Sic semper tyrranis! I just happen to be a Sunni Muslim who takes his religion and faith in God quite seriously.

I don’t believe suing anyone who “offends” us should be sued. And violence won’t do anyone any good when it comes to restoring the honor of Muslims and Islam.

It’s up to us as Muslims to earn the trust and honor that we feel that we are entitled to by acting and thinking honorably. Violence against our critics, violence against women and children and the lack of tolerance for alternative points of view will end up destroying us. They are the direct result of following our so-called religious and political leaders like sheep.

Sic semper tyrranis!

]]> By: LAIGLESFORUM http://laiglesforum.com/2008/03/29/important-questions-for-islamists-and-their-appeasers/comment-page-1/#comment-15446 LAIGLESFORUM Sat, 29 Mar 2008 17:32:26 +0000 http://laiglesforum.com/2008/03/29/important-questions-for-islamists-and-their-appeasers/#comment-15446 Re my response to Sean: By Gumpian I was referring to the movie Forrest Gump, one of the best films of the 20th century. Forrest Gump expressed my sentiments when he said: "I am not a smart man but I know what love is." The "smart men" in our world are the Harvard elites who think they can tell us all how to live our lives. The Gumps are the rest of us who just want government to leave us alone, because without their fancy high-falutin' "education," we little people could do just fine. The New Testament lists the best traits for human beings: "...faith hope and love, but the greatest of these is love." If we know that much we need know no more. Re my response to Sean:
By Gumpian I was referring to the movie Forrest Gump, one of the best films of the 20th century.
Forrest Gump expressed my sentiments when he said:
“I am not a smart man but I know what love is.”
The “smart men” in our world are the Harvard elites who think they can tell us all how to live our lives.
The Gumps are the rest of us who just want government to leave us alone, because without their fancy high-falutin’ “education,” we little people could do just fine.
The New Testament lists the best traits for human beings:
“…faith hope and love, but the greatest of these is love.”
If we know that much we need know no more.

]]> By: LAIGLESFORUM http://laiglesforum.com/2008/03/29/important-questions-for-islamists-and-their-appeasers/comment-page-1/#comment-15445 LAIGLESFORUM Sat, 29 Mar 2008 17:26:44 +0000 http://laiglesforum.com/2008/03/29/important-questions-for-islamists-and-their-appeasers/#comment-15445 Hello Jonolan, Thanks for the link to your site. I couldn't help but wondering at first if Wilders wasn't over the top with his call to ban the Koran as hate speech, but it ain't going to happen, so it is a non-concern. If it did, it would be awful because that would give the Left an excuse to ban parts of the Bible that certain orientations don't like. Hello Jonolan,
Thanks for the link to your site.
I couldn’t help but wondering at first if Wilders wasn’t over the top with his call to ban the Koran as hate speech, but it ain’t going to happen, so it is a non-concern.
If it did, it would be awful because that would give the Left an excuse to ban parts of the Bible that certain orientations don’t like.

]]> By: jonolan http://laiglesforum.com/2008/03/29/important-questions-for-islamists-and-their-appeasers/comment-page-1/#comment-15424 jonolan Sat, 29 Mar 2008 13:15:52 +0000 http://laiglesforum.com/2008/03/29/important-questions-for-islamists-and-their-appeasers/#comment-15424 In case anyone cares, I have the <i>Fina</i> video embedded and available - despite Liveleak's being forced to pull it down - over at http://blog.jonolan.net/religion/fitna-the-movie/ Personally I think the film is completely ham-handed and ridiculous due to it's overly broad portrayal of Muslims as evil, but MP Wilder should certainly be allowed to air it! Some people need to remember or learn that only unpopular speech needs protecting. In case anyone cares, I have the Fina video embedded and available – despite Liveleak’s being forced to pull it down – over at http://blog.jonolan.net/religion/fitna-the-movie/

Personally I think the film is completely ham-handed and ridiculous due to it’s overly broad portrayal of Muslims as evil, but MP Wilder should certainly be allowed to air it!

Some people need to remember or learn that only unpopular speech needs protecting.

]]> By: LAIGLESFORUM http://laiglesforum.com/2008/03/29/important-questions-for-islamists-and-their-appeasers/comment-page-1/#comment-15375 LAIGLESFORUM Sat, 29 Mar 2008 03:01:03 +0000 http://laiglesforum.com/2008/03/29/important-questions-for-islamists-and-their-appeasers/#comment-15375 Hello Sean, I am neither a Paleocon nor a Straussian. I am a Gumpian. Hello Sean,
I am neither a Paleocon nor a Straussian.
I am a Gumpian.

]]> By: Sean http://laiglesforum.com/2008/03/29/important-questions-for-islamists-and-their-appeasers/comment-page-1/#comment-15368 Sean Sat, 29 Mar 2008 01:29:54 +0000 http://laiglesforum.com/2008/03/29/important-questions-for-islamists-and-their-appeasers/#comment-15368 Are you a paleocon? Straussian? You seem to be opposed to the mentality of appeasement, which strikes me as being in the Keyes camp and not the Ron Paul camp. Is that correct? Are you a paleocon? Straussian? You seem to be opposed to the mentality of appeasement, which strikes me as being in the Keyes camp and not the Ron Paul camp. Is that correct?

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